13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by Macho Maddness »

If it was advertised as 2 vs 2 vs 1, it could have changed some picks so I'd say no.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by GM Bike »

LiQuid wrote:Did they not announce Rollins as winning by forfeit tho?

I don't know how this played out but I would think Bullet Club would have won their official debut if Gallows was there.
I disagree. The same could be said about peoples picks for Ambrose/Rollins. People who took Ambrose or a Draw could say they think if there was a match Ambrose would have won. I would understand if both members of the tag team were removed, however it was still a triple tag team match.

If there's going to be a ruling it should stem from the most recent precedence. You can't pick and choose which matches count and which do not when the scenarios are identical. Therefore you either count this match, or you go back and change the results from a Rollins win to the match not counting at all.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by legendkiller003 »

I disagree that the scenarios are identical.

What changed in the Rollins/Ambrose match? No ring action is not a change to the match. Rollins won by forfeit because Ambrose didn't show up for the match.

My vote is count the match though.. so I'm not really trying to agrue with you or anything.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by GM Bike »

I meant identical in the sense one guy is taken out of the match, the match takes place and is counted for Play-Per-View. Arguably the booking/same result occurs.

Oh I know, I was making my point moreso to LiQuid.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by MVH »

The result wouldn't have changed if Doc was there. The Kingdom got the pin on Karl, to set up a IWGP Tag Title match at the NJPW joint show in two months. They held Karl's Tag Title over their head together, which looked really awkward, and i'm sure that if Doc had been there, they'd have held both titles up after winning. Not only that, but Karl never once was booked in a disadvantageous situation. When i watched the match, it was obvious that nothing was changed from the original plans.

Seeing as what has been written, combined with my own thoughts on this, before even entering this thread, i counted it. And i ain't bias, because i picked Bullet Club, so if anything, it only counts worse for me in the standings.

What we could also do, is go with a strict policy of not counting anything if it changes even remotely.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by SeeDub »

MVH wrote:What we could also do, is go with a strict policy of not counting anything if it changes even remotely.
Seems like the only to way go for me, this rule has always been too vague. What we shouldn't be doing is waiting until the PPV is over to decide.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by Mackinlee »

Unless we work for ROH or we were road agents setting up the match, there's no way we can know that the Kingdom winning was their original plan. It shouldn't count. Also, how was Rollins vs. Ambrose different? It was advertised as Rollins vs. Ambrose and it was, forfeit or not.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by Franchise »

Agree with both Dub and Mack here. And while I personally didn't think it would matter whether Doc was there or not given how the Kingdom has been booked lately, I know most people probably wouldn't have picked Bullet Club knowing it was 2 vs 2 vs 1. That in and of itself is why it shouldn't count as the scope completely changed when it went to a handicap match essentially.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by MVH »

So someone got very lucky that the weather stopped one guy from appearing, but nothing else changed. Meanwhile someone made a very good prediction about the outcome, that wouldn't have changed no matter what, as the match was booked for future storylines.

I'd call that a fluke win.

But if you guys think it should be changed, then i wont argue more. If we count out the match then i'll get more points for the GC so no complaints here. However i don't know if Franchise can change the GC standings now?
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by Franchise »

Once the GC is run, I can't do anything about it unfortunately. I was working on something to go back and score last year's ROH GC, but haven't finished it. Since it's only the second PPV of the year tho, I think I can probably do what I am planning to test for WWE since the Rumble was missed for GC. Long-term, I don't know of a really good fix short of deleting all GC for the season and re-running them all for that season. That's not entirely a bad idea but I don't have it near done yet. Let me see if I can do what I need to for WWE and then if it works, I'll do the same for ROH (while re-rerunning the GC for Winter Warriors as well).

Going forward though, we need to define the rules for changed matches and put it somewhere stickied. I think Suki had something like that so I'll try to track it down. Once we have that, we can have a two or three prong test and if it hits on those, it's out (or in depending on how worded). Things like a forfeited matched like Rollins/Ambrose tho, if it was a legit ref rang the bell and declared the winner, that's a match as far as I'm concerned because the stips/participants didn't change, just the outcome.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by GM Bike »

MVH wrote:So someone got very lucky that the weather stopped one guy from appearing, but nothing else changed. Meanwhile someone made a very good prediction about the outcome, that wouldn't have changed no matter what, as the match was booked for future storylines.

I'd call that a fluke win.
Exactly, can you convincingly proof that if Gallows actually made it Bullet Club would have won the match? I don't think you can.

I would have no problem with this if the same ruling was given for whatever WWE PPV last year where Ambrose was taken out giving Rollins the win.

Like I said, you can't pick and choose when the rules are too vague.

Going forward however we can specify any alteration to any match, adding, subtracting, substituting a wrestler, etc... won't count towards Play-Per-Vew. As opposed to the lucid "Should a match be changed significantly... it will be omitted from scoring." - which leaves it open to too much interpretation.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by Franchise »

The only problem I have there is removing a guy from the match for legit reasons or booker just decided to isn't the same as the storyline Ambrose gets beat up and forfeits to Rollins. If the match is announced as Ambrose/Rollins, Rollins does his entrance, ref rings the bell, and Rollins is awarded via forfeit, that's completely different than Ambrose missing the match due to weather or them having the match but with another wrestler in his place.

But, if the majority of people feel that any kind of forfeit win like that where the guy doesn't even come out to the ring should be thrown out, just like the actual changing of participants or whatever, then we should make it a hard and fast rule.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by GM Bike »

I agree about making a rule.

That's what I'm saying, whether Ambrose was booked to wrestle or not would that have affected the outcome of Rollins winning? I don't think so, then again I don't know.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by MVH »

The Ambrose/Rollins has nothing to do with anything. It's the ref that makes the decision, and if the ref rules a forfeit win then that's a WIN and not a no contest. WWE.com specifically said "Rollins def. Ambrose via forfeit". It's such a different situation, and has NOTHING to do with the current case.

If you really want to refer to another situation, then look at the Kidd/Cesaro vs. New Day match from the rumble.
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Re: 13th Anniversary Show Play-Per-View

Post by LiQuid »

I don't think it's the same situation at all. Like Chise said it was 1 vs 1, and Seth was declared the winner. If they never raised his hand in the ring and just left it as the match didn't happen that would be different.

I don't know how it was handled in this case but again as Chise said if it was advertised as 2 v 2 v 1 I know my pick would have changed and I'm sure a few others as well. I have no idea how I did on the rest of the card nor do I care about my standing in this ppv all that much.

It is a bit of a vague rule tho and I dunno a clear way to handle it for every situation.
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